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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 26 črc 2019, 09:27 
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dasha píše:
Claro, to je velmi zajímavý postřeh, který mě ovšem přivádí k zamyšlení, kde tedy vlastně tedy brala šlechta peníze? Pronájem pozemků to nebyl, pozemky jim jako feudálům patřily nebo je měli v pronájmu od krále. V knize je řeč o nějakých "důchodech" či rentách, ví někdo, co je to vlastně za peníze a kdo je vyplácel? Renta, to mi zní jako úroky z nějakých jistin v bance.

Tohle je dotaz na Moiru, ale protože nás svojí dlouhodobou nepřítomností zde na fóru napíná, vkládám sem zatím jen stručný úryvek toho, co mi o rentách kdysi psala:

z ekonomického hľadiska ti zatiaľ napíšem iba toľko že existovali Renty ktoré sa dedily (Rentes perpétuelles)
a také čo sa nededili (rentes viagères), teda viazané na osobu - a mizli s úmrtím tej osoby

a ich výnosy (úroky) boli viazané na kapitál (peniaze) alebo na pozemky či iné nemovitosti - vznikol celý komplikovaný systém týchto RENTE

laicky vysvetlené napríklad
Renta Barona de Sance bolo to čo mu museli odvádzať obyvatelia žijúci na pôde ktorá mu patrila
to je jeden druh Rente

iný je napríklad keď si
Ninon de Lenclos uložila svoje peniaze a majetky z dedičstva a nechaal si potom vyplácať ročnú Rentu

napríklad Colbert založil systém kde systémom Rente si v podstate kráľovstvo požičalo peniaze (často ne vedenei vojen) a z týchto pôžičiek sa potom vyplácali renty plus úroky


dasha píše:
Jediný mně jasný zdroj příjmů, o kterém se také v kánonu píše, se mi jeví prodej pozemků, ale to není zrovna výhodná dlouhodobá strategie :D
A jak píše Clara, pokud žili nákladným životem u dvora, dostávali zřejmě "plat" za různé, často symbolické tituly a hodnosti, ale co ti ostatní, co třeba u dvora ani nežili?

Tohle je na samostatné téma :). Ti, co u života nežili, jako třeba Angeličin otec či bratr, který pak převzal Monteloup, holt museli chovat muly :).
Ten životní styl u dvora byl hodně nákladný a zatím ze všeho, co jsem o tom četla, mi vyšlo, že výnosy zdaleka nepokrývaly náklady...


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 27 črc 2019, 15:40 
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napríklad Renta Barona de Sance bolo to čo mu museli odvádzať obyvatelia žijúci na pôde ktorá mu patrila
to je jeden druh Rente

- tohle právě nechápu, já myslela, že to byli nevolníci a ti platili svou prací.

iný je napríklad keď si Ninon de Lenclos uložila svoje peniaze a majetky z dedičstva a nechaal si potom vyplácať ročnú Rentu
- tohle si umím představit, sice by dneska musel mít člověk balík, aby se dalo tímhle způsobem uživit, a ne žebráckých pár mega, ale tenkrát možná byly banky štědřejší :tongue:

napríklad Colbert založil systém kde systémom Rente si v podstate kráľovstvo požičalo peniaze (často ne vedenei vojen) a z týchto pôžičiek sa potom vyplácali renty plus úroky[/i]
- a tohle jsou v podstatě dluhopisy.

Nemyslím si, že by všichni šlechtici byli automaticky špatní hospodáři a ani že by se vyhýbali práci - vzpomeňme na markýzu, co se snažila získat monopol na prodej slanečků nebo Louvois, který si podával žádosti, aby získal majetek odsouzených. Tomu také věnoval nemálo času a skoro mám chuť rouhačsky parafrázovat Lotranda a Zubejdu: "Není to náhodou práce?" :P


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 27 črc 2019, 19:38 
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dasha píše:
napríklad Renta Barona de Sance bolo to čo mu museli odvádzať obyvatelia žijúci na pôde ktorá mu patrila
to je jeden druh Rente

- tohle právě nechápu, já myslela, že to byli nevolníci a ti platili svou prací.

Musela bych si hodně moc osvěžit své znalosti novověkých dějin, abych to mohla tvrdit s jistotou, ale řekla bych, že ve Francii touto dobou nevolnictví tak, jak ho známe od nás nebo z Ruska, nebylo. Sedláci byli svobodní a za možnost užívat půdu apod. odváděli nějaké naturálie. Vždyť jeden ze statkářů barona de Sancé byl tuším bohatší než jeho lenní pán...

V červnu vdával otec Saulier s velkou slávou dceru. Byl to jediný statkář barona de Sancé, který zaměstnával nájemce.
Tedy zámožný muž, navíc místní krčmář.
Malý románský kostelík byl vyzdoben květinami a svíčkami silnými jako ruka. Nevěstu k oltáři vedl sám pan baron.
Hostina trvala několik hodin, na stole se skvěla jelita a jitrnice, klobásky a sýr. Pilo se víno.
Po hostině přinášely ženy ze vsi, jak bylo zvykem, dárky pro mladou novomanželku.
Seděla ve svém novém domě na lavici u velkého stolu, kde se vršilo nádobí, prádlo, měděné a cínové kotlíky. Její kulatý, poněkud přihlouplý obličejík svítil pod obrovskou kopretinovou
korunou radostí.
Paní de Sancé se skoro styděla, že přináší tak skromný dárek: několik pěkných porcelánových talířů, které měla schované pro podobné příležitosti. Angeliku okamžitě napadlo, že na zámku jedí ze stejných misek jako sedláci. Ta nelogičnost ji zároveň bolela i urážela - ti lidé jsou ale divní! Copak není naprosto jasné, že ani venkovanka nebude jíst z těchhle talířů, taky je schová do truhly a dál bude jíst z misky? I na Plessis je tolik nádherných věcí, které jsou tam uloženy jako do hrobu!


https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevolnictv%C3%AD


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 05 úno 2020, 01:14 
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Hi, I’m very glad to have found this site where at last I read opinions about the character of Philippe du Plessis-Bellière which are not superficial or clearly misleading. I particularly share the analysis of Penelope and Loupas.
In my opinion, the first 3 volumes are definitely the most beautiful part of the saga. More precisely, "The road to Versailles" and "Angelique and the king” (until Philippe’s death) constitute a kind of novel in the novel and reach truly remarkable heights. In this part of the saga, which is full of unforgettable scenes, there is the extraordinary love story between Angelique and Philippe, a fascinating and contradictory character, who makes readers fall in love (without taking anything away from the fans of Geoffrey de Peyrac).
The most handsome gentleman in the court, magnificent and violent, immediately falls in love with Angelica but will resist against this feeling until Angelique's love manages to change him and reveal his deeper, tender and romantically passionate temperament. The scene where he consoles his wife for the death of her son Cantor is one of the most touching in literature. Philippe would not have liked to love Angelica because he didn't want to suffer, he knows perfectly well that "the king is the master" and he doesn't want to disobey or share. It is a tragic dilemma, which he will resolve with self-sacrifice.
I would like to go deeper with you because I remarked that this is one of the most misunderstood characters.


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 06 úno 2020, 17:27 
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Lisa píše:
Hi, I’m very glad to have found this site where at last I read opinions about the character of Philippe du Plessis-Bellière which are not superficial or clearly misleading. I particularly share the analysis of Penelope and Loupas.
In my opinion, the first 3 volumes are definitely the most beautiful part of the saga. More precisely, "The road to Versailles" and "Angelique and the king” (until Philippe’s death) constitute a kind of novel in the novel and reach truly remarkable heights. In this part of the saga, which is full of unforgettable scenes, there is the extraordinary love story between Angelique and Philippe, a fascinating and contradictory character, who makes readers fall in love (without taking anything away from the fans of Geoffrey de Peyrac).
The most handsome gentleman in the court, magnificent and violent, immediately falls in love with Angelica but will resist against this feeling until Angelique's love manages to change him and reveal his deeper, tender and romantically passionate temperament. The scene where he consoles his wife for the death of her son Cantor is one of the most touching in literature. Philippe would not have liked to love Angelica because he didn't want to suffer, he knows perfectly well that "the king is the master" and he doesn't want to disobey or share. It is a tragic dilemma, which he will resolve with self-sacrifice.
I would like to go deeper with you because I remarked that this is one of the most misunderstood characters.


Hi Lisa, I think we all can only agree with you. Philippe is very popular character. Btw, how did you read this forum: Google translator or do you have Czech ancestors and can read Czech? If this works for you, you are welcomed.


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 07 úno 2020, 14:58 
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Dear Lisa, welcome to this site! I am curious how You found it and where are You from? I agree with you that Philippe is a beautiful tragic character :ach: . If the main character wasn't Joffrey, how Philippe's relationship with Angélique would evolve? ...

Milá Liso, vítej na těchto stránkách? Jsem zvědavá, jak jsi je našla a odkud jsi? Souhlasím s Tebou, že Filip je krásně tragická postava. Kdyby hlavní mužskou postavou nebyl Joffrey, jak by asi jeho vztah s Angelikou pokračoval?


Naposledy upravil PenelopaW dne 12 bře 2020, 14:50, celkově upraveno 1

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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 08 úno 2020, 00:06 
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Hi Jeanne and Penelopa and hello everyone!
I found this site after having searched the internet for a long time for sites related to the Angélique saga. I am Italian and I found sites in the languages I know, Italian, French and English, but they were all very disappointing. In the end, typing the name of Philippe du Plessis- Bellière I saw a comment in an unknown language, which I translated with google translator. It was your site. I read a few comments and I immediately realized that it was the one I was looking for. I was over the moon!
I also registered on the English section of this site but the Czech one is much richer.

I answer to Penelopa.
The love story between Philippe and Angélique is something completely different from the rest of the saga, so much that it could be considered a novel in itself, it is autonomous, has a beginning, an evolution and an ending. It needs nothing else. And it could only have ended as it ended. Let me explain.
Let's see some possible alternative scenarios. Given that Philippe loves Angélique and can never again go back, I mean, he can’t try to hate her again or be indifferent; and she loves him. But they are both courtiers and if Angélique continues to have charges at the court she will have to behave like all the ladies of the Court, that is, to be submissive to the king's wishes. Withdrawing from the Court, perhaps at Plessis, it’s too late, as Philippe says in their last dialogue (actually, the whole story of their relationship and Philippe's many behaviors aimed to protect her from court life and to have a love marriage). So the outcome was inevitable.
But suppose Philippe hadn't committed suicide. Angélique gives up her offices and withdraws from the court. The king does not accept this and the Plessis-Bellière fall out of favor, and are confined to their fiefdom. However, Philippe is Marshal of France and cannot (nor does he want, in my opinion) leave that very high military rank. Giving it up would be a rebellion and, despite the love for Angélique, a military insubordination is not consistent in consideration of Philippe's personality and mentality (Joffrey would have done it but for Philippe it is unthinkable). Consequently, even assuming that Angélique managed to take refuge in Plessis, the king would find a way to hinder her business, removing their sources of income. Philippe would be constantly sent to military campaigns, possibly dangerous. Always separate and without sources of income: I don't think that this situation would be sustainable for them and for their children.
Unless Philippe completely reverses his mentality (and Angélique gives up her ambitions) and the couple have the courage to leave everything and escape to the New World! In this second scenario a new novel opens, with the two heroes facing dangerous adventures, always feeling passionate love. Until one day Joffrey turns up and…

But I am firmly convinced that the tragic ending, in addition to being more realistic, produces a shocking impact on the readers, moves to tears and remains unforgettable.


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 10 úno 2020, 21:08 
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Lisa píše:
Hi Jeanne and Penelopa and hello everyone!
I found this site after having searched the internet for a long time for sites related to the Angélique saga. I am Italian and I found sites in the languages I know, Italian, French and English, but they were all very disappointing. In the end, typing the name of Philippe du Plessis- Bellière I saw a comment in an unknown language, which I translated with google translator. It was your site. I read a few comments and I immediately realized that it was the one I was looking for. I was over the moon!
I also registered on the English section of this site but the Czech one is much richer.

I answer to Penelopa.
The love story between Philippe and Angélique is something completely different from the rest of the saga, so much that it could be considered a novel in itself, it is autonomous, has a beginning, an evolution and an ending. It needs nothing else. And it could only have ended as it ended. Let me explain.
Let's see some possible alternative scenarios. Given that Philippe loves Angélique and can never again go back, I mean, he can’t try to hate her again or be indifferent; and she loves him. But they are both courtiers and if Angélique continues to have charges at the court she will have to behave like all the ladies of the Court, that is, to be submissive to the king's wishes. Withdrawing from the Court, perhaps at Plessis, it’s too late, as Philippe says in their last dialogue (actually, the whole story of their relationship and Philippe's many behaviors aimed to protect her from court life and to have a love marriage). So the outcome was inevitable.
But suppose Philippe hadn't committed suicide. Angélique gives up her offices and withdraws from the court. The king does not accept this and the Plessis-Bellière fall out of favor, and are confined to their fiefdom. However, Philippe is Marshal of France and cannot (nor does he want, in my opinion) leave that very high military rank. Giving it up would be a rebellion and, despite the love for Angélique, a military insubordination is not consistent in consideration of Philippe's personality and mentality (Joffrey would have done it but for Philippe it is unthinkable). Consequently, even assuming that Angélique managed to take refuge in Plessis, the king would find a way to hinder her business, removing their sources of income. Philippe would be constantly sent to military campaigns, possibly dangerous. Always separate and without sources of income: I don't think that this situation would be sustainable for them and for their children.
Unless Philippe completely reverses his mentality (and Angélique gives up her ambitions) and the couple have the courage to leave everything and escape to the New World! In this second scenario a new novel opens, with the two heroes facing dangerous adventures, always feeling passionate love. Until one day Joffrey turns up and…

But I am firmly convinced that the tragic ending, in addition to being more realistic, produces a shocking impact on the readers, moves to tears and remains unforgettable.


Thank you for the explanation, Lisa. You are right, the English forum is not used, you can find us mostly here and we also like to meet in real, mostly in the Czech Republic. Nevertheless, when I read your ideas about Philippe and Angelique... I just think that I would love to read a new fan fiction about Philippe. Would you be interested in writing a short story on this theme? We have here also a big section for fan fictions, I am not sure how they can look after the translation in Google, but I guess that it can be very funny. :) I am sending you the password to this part of discussion forum in a personal message!

Btw, in the section User you can find Settings and there you can find options for general language of this discussion forum. I hope you choose English!


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 17 úno 2020, 13:37 
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Dear Lisa,

sorry for my late reply. I like Your analysis a lot. And... even if it hurts me to admit it... You are right. There is no other acceptable scenario than the one Anne Golon wrote. (I like happy endings.)

But I like the possible departure of the couple into the New world (although there is a threat of future conflict ;) ).
Btw: Rescator went to America after having to leave the Mediterranean, but would he have gone if he had never met a female slave with green eyes? ;)

As Jeanne wrote, don't You want to write some fan fiction story? Philippe has only one short story from Precious here...


Milá Liso,
omlouvám se za pozdní odpověď. Tvůj rozbor se mi moc líbí. A... i když mě bolí to přiznat... máš pravdu. Není žádný jiný přijatelný scénář než ten, který AG napsala. (Mám ráda šťastné konce.)
Ale líbí se mi myšlenka na možný odjezd páru do Nového světa (ačkoli zde je také hrozba budoucího konfliktu).
Mimochodem: Rescator odešel do Ameriky poté, co se vzdal Středomoří, ale odešel by i kdyby nikdy nepotkal otrokyni se zelenýma očima?

Jak psala Jeanne, nechceš napsat nějakou fikci? Filip tu má jen jeden krátký příběh od Precious...


Naposledy upravil PenelopaW dne 12 bře 2020, 14:53, celkově upraveno 1

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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 18 úno 2020, 21:59 
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PenelopaW píše:
Dear Lisa,
As Jeanne wrote, don't You want to write some fan fiction story? Philippe has only one short story from Precious here...


YEP! Philippe is such a exceptional, complex character. Pity we do not have more fan fictions about him. :?

Sometimes, I just wonder what would have been happened, if Joffrey returned to France while Phillipe was still alive. Or if Phillipe never died. :roll: :roll:

By the way: Dear Lisa, welcome in club! :D My nickname here is "La Polack" maybe because I am the oldest one and as well the craziest one here. :la-polak-fun:

Is lovely to have here somebody with 3 languages! :applaus: I speak English and Italian, and i understand quite well written French, but I can not really manage to speak French.

May I ask you which one of the 3 languages is your mother tongue? And in which language did you read the books?
Do you know about the differences in the books? (I have written about it in our English speaking discussion forum)
In some of the books is more of Phillipe.

Anyway we do use French books for historical recherche. (Books about life in France of 17th century) But there are some great Italian ans English sources as well.

So many questions! LOL :D 8)


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 28 úno 2020, 00:42 
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Hi Moirra / La Polack, ;) thanks for your welcome, it’s very kind of you!

I am an Italian woman and Italian is my mother tongue but I am a teacher of French language and literature, and I also know English quite well. I have read Angelica's books several times, both in French and in Italian, including the new edition, making comparisons, page after page in order to find the differences. I didn't read the English version because it didn't seem necessary to me.
The reason for these repeated readings is, first of all, for the pleasure of reading, as for all of us, who love this work so much. But there is another reason: I have wanted to do a study on the character of Plessis-Bellière, who has always interested me more than any other.

The Italian translation of the original text was made in the 60s and 70s by an excellent translator, a real writer. I only found 4 or 5 oversights. On the other hand, the translator added some pages about the historical background which, in my opinion, are useful in order to clarify the political situation. In addition, here and there he added few short remarks on the character that interests me, Plessis-Bellière, which I found really acute and penetrating and which are in the same line of my interpretation of his personality.
As for the new version, which I read in French, as you will know, there have been additions in the historical parts and in cultural aspects like, for example, the love courts of the south of France and the phenomenon of Preciosity. There are also changes of position of certain parts, and some suppressions.
As regards the parts where Philippe du Plessis-Bellière is involved, there are some additions in the first volume and something in the parts where he meets Angelica in Paris. All these additions go in the direction of mitigating a little the negativity of the character, whom Anne Golon loved very much and who had realized that he had been often misunderstood. The last volume published in the new edition ends with the wedding night of Angelica and Philippe.
However, luckily, the parts where Philippe comes into play, in my opinion beautifully written, have not been touched (except a suppression, I suppose unintentionally).
In conclusion, if I have to be honest, there was no need for this new edition, the saga was perfect as it was. :)


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 06 bře 2020, 01:04 
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Hi Lisa. Welcome to the forum. Though not a regular contributor I am a regular Angelique reader, again and again. Like most of us :). What a beautiful piece of work the series are, aren´t they?

Phillipe is definitely an interesting character. What inspires you most about him?

I think his relationship with Angelique cannot be compared to that of Joffrey. Angelique has never been an inwardly wounded being, the same applies to Joffrey, though he has experienced childhood trauma. However, this cannot be said of Phillip, who was neglected by his parents and sexually abused in childhood. He grew up without love. The feeling of Angelique towards him is more of a motherly feeling than of a real lover. His tragic end fully corresponds to his tragic childhood, which is very realistic. Unfortunately ... :(


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 09 bře 2020, 16:16 
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Lisa píše:
As for the new version, which I read in French, as you will know, there have been additions in the historical parts and in cultural aspects like, for example, the love courts of the south of France and the phenomenon of Preciosity. There are also changes of position of certain parts, and some suppressions.
As regards the parts where Philippe du Plessis-Bellière is involved, there are some additions in the first volume and something in the parts where he meets Angelica in Paris. All these additions go in the direction of mitigating a little the negativity of the character, whom Anne Golon loved very much and who had realized that he had been often misunderstood. The last volume published in the new edition ends with the wedding night of Angelica and Philippe.
However, luckily, the parts where Philippe comes into play, in my opinion beautifully written, have not been touched (except a suppression, I suppose unintentionally).
In conclusion, if I have to be honest, there was no need for this new edition, the saga was perfect as it was. :)

Only the first five volumes of the Intégrale were published in Czech language, so I couldn't read extended passages with Philippe… :-( (The fifth volume ends with the rescue of Le poète crotté by Angélique.)
Some added passages are interesting,* but overall I share the opinion that they were unnecessary... For example, I don't fully understand the story line about gypsy curse or figure of Flégetanis... :roll:

V čestině bylo z Intégrale vydáno jen prvních pět dílů, takže jsme si nemohli přečíst rozšířené pasáže s Filipem. (Pátý svazek končí záchranou Básníka Špíny Angelikou.)
Některé přidané pasáže jsou zajímavé,* ale obecně sdílím názor, že nebyly nezbytné. Například zcela nechápu dějovou linku o cikánské kletbě či osobě Flegetanise.

* I learned something new about Desgrez, e.g. what order his sister belonged to (viewtopic.php?f=16&t=800).
* Dozvěděla jsem se něco nového o Desgrezovi, např. k jakému řádu náležela jeho sestra.


For not to discuss where it does not belong, I insert here links to topics related to Intégrale:
Abychom nediskutovaly někde, kam to nepatří, vkládám odkazy na témata věnovaná Intégrale:

Intégrale - generally about edition: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=115
(Obecně o edici a Království francouzské)

1. volume (1. díl): viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29
2. volume (2. díl): viewtopic.php?f=1&t=235
3. volume (3. díl): viewtopic.php?f=1&t=299
4. volume (4. díl): viewtopic.php?f=1&t=333
5. volume (5. díl): viewtopic.php?f=1&t=344

"war in lace" - La guerre en dentelles: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=467
(Válka v krajkách)


Naposledy upravil PenelopaW dne 12 bře 2020, 14:56, celkově upraveno 1

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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 10 bře 2020, 01:27 
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Hi Maira,
The character Philippe du Plessis-Bellière impressed me far more than any other since my first reading as a teenager and the same impression was confirmed in the many subsequent readings, in which I tried to capture the less obvious aspects of his intriguing personality. Plessis-Bellière's personality is very complex and contradictory, and for this reason more realistic and modern for example than Peyrac. Being the most generous, the most courageous, the most intelligent, the most educated, the best lover, honestly, is not very consistent with how a man could be in reality. In my opinion, Philippe with its contradictions and ambiguities is the most modern, realistic and charming of all.
As for the love story with Angélique, I find it wonderful, one of the most touching love stories in the literature. For both it is a love of sex and feeling, a complete and intense passion. For Angélique it is not a maternal feeling at all, she was attracted when she was a teenager and even more as an adult by Philippe's amazing beauty. It is known that love at first sight passes through the eyes, and hers was nothing less than a double love at first sight. She will never stop feeling her heart leap every time she sees him. Moreover, whenever she has a close contact with Philippe's body, she feels stirred and desires him madly.
But it would be too long to explain everything here. I did a study on the character of Plessis-Bellière and a comment on the section of the saga that deals with their love story (in my opinion the most beautiful part of the series). In this study, which I will publish on the English version of this site, I will try to demonstrate by exact quotes from the text my interpretation, which I mentioned above.
I hope to help clarify certain aspects of the character and of Philippe and Angélique’s relationship which have often not been captured or have been misunderstood.
I have to find the time to translate everything into English. :)


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 Předmět příspěvku: Re: Philippe du Plessis-Bellière
PříspěvekNapsal: 11 bře 2020, 18:07 
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Hi Lisa. Welcome to the forum (opsáno od Mairy :agree: :oops: ).
Děkuji Mr. Google, že se mohu těchto diskuzí na dálku zúčastnit. Někdy mám ale pocit, že má tento pán trochu přihnuto, neboť z něj lezou hotové bláboly. Mohla bych prosím jménem negranotných(jestli teda kromě mne ještě nějací jsou) požádat, abyste děvčata občas přidala i kousek českého překladu vašich reakcí? On je ten Filip vážně docela zajímavý muž:agree:. Děkuji.


Naposledy upravil Tereza dne 12 bře 2020, 16:09, celkově upraveno 1

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